Tuesday, June 12, 2007

Bumpersticker Abortion

FROM DU: Is Abortion Immoral?

Though most, if not all, of us support the right of a woman to have an abortion, is the act itself immoral? One can say that the fetus is a human life. If that is so, then the act of aborting would mean the elimination of a human life which many people find immoral. Is it immoral?


I am not making a moral comparison between forced childbirth and abortion. I believe in people having the right to make their own moral decisions. I am asking whether the act of aborting, in itself (meaning, for a healthy, emotionally stable and financially secure woman) is immoral according to YOU. (StudentsMustUniteNow)

DU Chimes In:

--What is morality? Your morality is not my reality.

--Whether it's moral or not is a meaningless question as morality is obviously relative depending on a persons belief system. Moral Absolutism be damned, people have different opinions on what's right and wrong, at least as far as this is concerned.

--I see you are a guy. I think very few women would ask this question. Amazing how MORALS should figure into this equation at all.

--It is a personal decision either way and everybody else needs to keep their nose out of it. If you consider it immoral based on religious reasons then you need to keep your religion out of other people's personal decisions.

--It's a medical procedure. It's less immoral than forcing a woman to give birth.

--Is my sperm a human life? No, it has the potential, under the right circumstances, to become human life. The same is true of a fetus. The frequency of spontaneous miscarriage renders this whole question silly. If abortion is immoral, then nature itself must be immoral, because more pregnancies are terminated naturally than by any medical process.

--To me, the question isn't about when human life begins, because in every real scientific sense I can think of, it begins at conception. The question to me is whether the state has the power to invade a woman's privacy in order to prevent an abortion, and I think the state does not have that power. Another way to look at it is that the question is not when life begins but when the responsibility of motherhood begins.

--No. Abortion is not immoral. Like the poster I saw at a clinic states "If men got pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament"

--Q. How do you define "immoral"? A. Something I'll need to apologize for when face-to-face with God. In secular terms: Something immoral is an act that would harm my conscience.

--The factors in that choice are a matter of privacy between the woman and her physician; the male involved already put his 2 cents in, so to speak.

--Hell no. That's not even a fetus, it's an embryo, and it's nobody's goddamned business if a woman chooses to terminate a non-viable blob.

--Is blood transfusion immoral? Is tonsillectomy immoral? If I believe in a religion that holds as an article of faith the human soul is invested in the whole body and the surgical removal of any body part is a partial destruction of the soul, can I get a law passed to prevent you from obtaining a tonsillectomy?

--Yes, it does amaze me that anyone could think that abortion -- a medical procedure -- could be immoral. Heart surgery is not immoral. Neither is surgery to remove tonsils or an appendix. I am amazed that would think that abortion -- another medical procedure -- could be immoral.

--WTF do you need to know about MY morality? Worry about your own. What an astonishingly offensive question.

--"I think we can all agree that we want fewer abortions performed." Actually, not all of us agree that we want fewer abortions performed. Abortion is a medical procedure. I, for one, want as many abortions to be performed as are necessary.

Heart surgery is a medical procedure, too. It saves lives. I would NOT be in favor of "fewer heart surgeries". I would be in favor of creating conditions so that fewer heart surgeries would be necessary.

I would also be in favor of creating conditions so that fewer abortions would be necessary. But, until those conditions come into existence, I see no need to be in favor of wanting fewer abortions to be performed.

Each woman decides for herself whether an abortion is or is not neccessary. And I want each woman who feels that an abortion is neccessary to be able to have one.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1087803

I have often struggled with the question of abortion... When I was a liberal, long ago, I always felt that women should have complete control over her own body; I always thought a woman should have free choice in deciding whether or not she had an abortion.

I didn't feel that someone else--in all probability, a man--had the right to make that decision for her. Too many times women, throughout history, had been forced into marriages, denied birth control, and had no choice over sex and child bearing. I couldn't imagine what it would be like to be pregnant against my will--and I didn't want that.

Of course, I also never denied that abortion was murder and that, for all the supposed 'freedom' the pro-choice stance conferred, I felt that it was a choice women should, with everything in their power, NOT exercise. Abortion-as-birth-control, abortion-because-I-wasn't-careful, abortion-because-I-wasn't-'ready' was an unconscionable abuse of that 'freedom'.

I am still terribly conflicted about the issue of being pro-choice... However, in my later years, I see more and more wrong with it, and I ask myself more and more questions. As I developed my spirituality more thoroughly, life took on a deeper meaning--and the beginnings of life, too--and why we were here. I asked myself what was our duty in being here?--and that couldn't help but impact my feelings about abortion.

I supposed that every gal felt similarly; I'd assumed it was a tough nut for all of us (and one I have not yet decided...) Imagine my surprise to read at DU--long a bastion of pro-choice fever--that they'd done so little thinking about it! I knew this was 'I Had An Abortion' T-shirt central, but I had no idea they'd done so much work on rationalizing the issue; to many of them, it was of no more consequence than having acrylic nails applied.

I am appalled at the shallow, fluffernutter attitudes of Leftists towards the continuation of a human life. It easily takes it's place along side their lack of consideration towards the President, their vapid support of our troops overseas, and their general attitudes about self-defense and their country. To them, even 'abortion' is nothing but a bumpersticker.

The Left needs to give up their latter-day 'flower-power' protest nonsense and grow up enough to think about life. They need not be some Earth-Day, Nobel-Prize-Winning guru that 'saves the world' (He who has saved the world was already here--and it wasn't Al Gore...) The Left needs to think about what they owe Him.

15 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

DONAL your sentiments on the issue are BEAUTIFULLY expressed and mirror my own, believe it or not.

I was raised in a liberal household by two of the original "feminists" or at least my mother and older sister liked to think that of themselves. Curiously neither challenged my father for absolute control of the household, but that's for another day.

Roe v. Wade has to be thrown out or vacated because it's just BAD law and does damage to our Constitution due to the way it was conceived. Any law that harms the Constitution hurts Americans in the end. The whole abortion issue needs to go back to the individual states, just like capital punishment.

If I were King for the day I would make EVERYBODY mad on this issue with my irrevocable decree.

1. Abortions would be absolutely legal and unmolested for the first 4 months of pregnancy. A woman has total access to an abortion. Not at all taxpayer funded, these would be paid for privately or through charitable organizations.

2. After the 4 month point a woman wanting an abortion would have to show that carrying the baby to term would seriously endanger her life, NOT HER MENTAL HEALTH!

Anyways I understand your thought evolution on the abortion issue to a tee. Once upon a time I was one of those morally vacuous idiots that seem to populate the DU. Once you come to the conclusion that the baby in the mother's womb is not a DOLPHIN or a RAT you are forced to admit that abortion kills a baby human. That's at the heart of the incredible anger and rage from abortion activists.

On one side you have people who publically dehumanize the baby for the purposes of making the slaughter acceptable. These people also make the point that we "have no right to tell a woman what she can do with her body."

I have some sympathy for that point and wouldn't DREAM of telling a pregnant stranger that she couldn't abort her baby. It smacks of an intensly "personal" interference.

On the other side you have people who make the common sense point that ANY abortion kills a helpless human being, and as a human that baby has certain rights. For instance the right to LIFE. It's stated in the Preamble.

I don't side with either extreme, but I understand them both. That's why I would institute the compromise if I had my way. This is a tough issue.

Morgan

11:27 AM  
Blogger VerityINK said...

Thank you, Morgan--you made my day! Yes, I still struggle with it--but I don't tell myself the vacuous and stupid nutjob best to rationalize it like they do at DU. I really am appalled at their cavalier attitude.

11:41 AM  
Blogger VerityINK said...

That one idiot doesn't even know the difference between a sperm and a fetus!

Leave a sperm alone to follow it's natural course and it will die a sperm. Leave a fetus alone to follow it's natural course and, in 20 years, you can see it off to college!

A sperm is NOT the same as a fertilized egg that grows!

11:56 AM  
Blogger The Merry Widow said...

I guess I was raised very conservative, I can't see abortion EXCEPT for cases of rape or incest, especially if it's a young girl, or under extreme physical harm to the mother.
Otherwise, it is a way to devalue the life of a human being.
As for adoption, I was adopted at 18 months old, I prefer life, thank you!

tmw

3:55 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe one of these DU'ers can tell me what happens to the fetus after the abortion procedure, where does it go? If it isn't murder,I mean. I was a ''pro-choicer'' too. Until someone told me they chose life, then they were a ''reactionary religious bigot trying to force their morality on me''. I'm sure glad my late mother didn't excerise her ''choice''. I'm sure glad Donals mom didn't. Or anyone else's here for that amtter. I wonder if them DU'ers are grateful their mothers didn't. Do you think they are? I'm feeling much better, man, did I have a crummy two days:-( Hi Donal. Good talking to you Morgan. J'Mac.

4:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

DONAL I think we are of the same mind on this issue.

TMW you are ABSOLUTELY right. Abortion does indeed cheapen life. I heard that first on Rush Limbaugh and it makes perfect sense. The left has a culture of death. That's death for the innocent only. They would fight tooth and nail to keep a child rapist and serial killer from going to Florida's electric chair.

Johnny it was good to hear from you! I'm glad you're in a better mood. Nanette goes into these deep funks on occassion, her dad does too so there must be some sort of genetic predisposition there. How's the new job going? Hey wew're gonna be in New Joisey on Friday for 3 days. I'll send up a signal flare from Newark Airport!

Morgan

5:15 PM  
Blogger VerityINK said...

I'm glad you're better, J'Mac; I was worried about you!

7:05 PM  
Anonymous z said...

TMW, I'm a little surprised by your comment re: rape and abortion. When considering that the baby's life is at stake, who cares if the parents knew each other? Is it kindness to the mom which prompts this "how can we expect her to carry the child of a rapist for 9 months?" or? I know what a solid believer you are, and that's the only reason this surprised me, and I DO NOT MEAN to sound like I'm challenging you or think you're wrong (who am I?), but I'd like to discuss this from the faith angle, if you're willing or feel like it. Mostly because I admire your strong faith and know you're smart and I'm mixed on this subject.


Don't get me wrong....I think it's AWFUL to consider having to do that!!, but, on the other hand, a child is a child, no matter how it was conceived, isn't it.

Morgan and Donal...having said that, I will now proceed to prove myself a total hypocrite and say that, while I'd love everyone to consider a baby a baby from the moment of conception, it's unrealist in our world today to tell any mother she can't abort...SO, I would go for your solution, too. Do what you need to do, just PLEASE don't ask ME to pay for it!! (now, if only we could tell PBS that about Bill Moyers' salary, huh?!)

7:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Z I'd almost rather drive a young mother to the clinic AND pay for the abortion than to pay Moyers' salary!

Just kidding. G-d how I wish that EVERY baby was wanted and born into a loving family...

Morgan

8:02 PM  
Anonymous z said...

Morgan, I'm with you on both counts!

And I want to post here to TMW that I IN NO WAY meant she's WRONG or I'm RIGHT...about the rape situation. I have just often wondered if there is duplicity in suggesting "only children of rape" don't deserve to be born. It's a very common stance, and I've always been curious about it. I'm NOT saying anybody's wrong, just very curious to discuss the matter with someone who's a person of strong faith.

10:09 PM  
Blogger VerityINK said...

Z--I think everyone knows that children of rape are innocent victims; it is out of compassion for the woman that they are not made to bear a child in what could possibly be the likeness of their attacker.

Also, on ethnic grounds, rape was always quite deliberately used as a weapon in war (as it still is in the Congo, Darfur etc.) I'm not sure that it's fair, or wise, to help out one's enemies by forcing their own women to give birth to the enemies' children...

10:20 PM  
Blogger The Merry Widow said...

Morning All!
Z darlin'-I know where you are coming from and I'm not bothered! Honest questions deserve honest answers.
A church I attended in Palm Bay, FLA. had a women's group, one lady had been abused by her father and 2 older brothers for years. She was forced to bear 5 or 7 children, most were her father's, the rest a split between the brothers. Her father kept telling the social workers she was sleeping with her boyfriends, she had none because she was her families sex slave! Why was she forced and punished, brutalized and her reputation destroyed? For the sick pleasure of her family?
In those cases, abortion would be a mercy, she was very horribly mentally destroyed! Why should the victim of rape be forced to relive that rape? If she gets to a hospital, they will do a D&C and give her medicine to prevent implantation. And any and all rapists, incestuous men and child predators should have 1 strike and they are out!
My late husband, who hated abortion, believed that in the case of a wife's health, the marriage bond was first and should be preserved.
We know that G*D keeps those little lost ones close to HIM!
But we live in a brutal and heartless world, the choice for abortion in the case of rape or incest must be there,and yes, I have 2 friends who were date raped and chose to have their children. One adopted her baby out to a Christian couple and the other is the mother of one of my teens friends! This world is rarely cut and dried, but G*D is Merciful, and HE gives wisdom when we ask.
The whole situation is a tragedy, I'm just thinking of the young girls.
Good morning, G*D bless and Maranatha!

tmw

3:50 AM  
Anonymous z said...

Donal, I sure do see your point in the way you describe rape being used like that, thanks..

And TMW, I really do understand your stance better, too. Like Donal says, though I needed no prompting to believe you view every little soul as an innocent victim. THough, in God's eyes, I don't think VICTIM is the word, now that I think of it.

Anyway...the situations you describe are brutal and awful, unthinkable, really...I've never heard anything that ugly in a family!. I still think a baby doesn't deserve having no life because of the ugly way it was conceived, but we do have to cling to our belief that God is omnipotent and knows better...and forgives. I guess we have to give the same caring to the 'young girls', as you say....just hard to draw the line between who's more important...the young girl or the newly growing fetus. Only God knows. All things for His purpose.

thanks....very much. xxx z

3:46 PM  
Blogger The Merry Widow said...

Z-One of the many costs of the Fall in the Garden, and our burden of original sin. Some choose to act like the devil, sowing destruction, despair and death in their wake.
Then there are those of us who have looked evil in the eye and fought for those forgotten victims!
My heart grieves for the little ones, but honestly, they are safe in the Father's Arms, loved and cared for. The ones who are left behind need our help to remember love, cleaness, wholeness, and hope.
Those who use it for birth control, well I have known some of them, and the price they pay is high to! Either lifelong guilt for their selfishness or a calloused and hardened soul. One woman had had 2 abortions before she became a Christian, she married and was told she could never have children. Well the last I saw, she had 2 little boys, she suffered horribly through both pregnancies, but got down on her knees and thanked G*D for her boys!
G*D sometimes has more mercy than we do! I try to keep that in mind!

tmw

5:02 PM  
Anonymous z said...

what an absolutely wonderful post, TMW...thanks so much. Yes, I believe you're right...God has more mercy than we do. It can clarify and explain a LOT, can't it.

GOod thing to remember!
Love, me

10:17 PM  

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