Sunday, December 30, 2007

Iconoclast vs. The Patriot

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Iconoclast63 Responds to The Stupidest Post Of the Day:

(At: http://dudratreview.blogspot.com/2007/12/stupidest-post-of-day-kumbaya-works.html#links)

Calling this the Stupidest Post of the Day illustrates very clearly the type of sentiment that will, if left unchecked, assure this country remains perpetually at war.

The list of atrocities you mentioned are a SYMPTOM of an illness, not the illness itself. Why the US? Why not China, or Sweden, or Costa Rica for that matter? Why have the "enemies" focused their hatred on us? There has to be a reason, right?

Just like WWII. I find it astonishing that most American's never even consider what would have motivated the Japanese to attack us. They attacked, and that is the end of it. Does that even make sense that Japan would attack us for no apparent reason?

Let's see, we were building bases across the Pacific and trying to cut off their oil supplies from Burma. Hmmm. We relocated the Pacific fleet from San Diego to Pearl Harbor, cutting the distance almost in half from our fleet and theirs. They obviously, correctly or incorrectly, believed they had no choice but attack.

Perhaps we should stop being so blindly patriotic that we can't be honest about why we are "The Great Satan". Maybe if we make an accurate diagnosis we can cure the disease and stop bringing our kids home in plastic bags.

Iconoclast63

My Answer To Him As The Patriot:

Icon63--YOU and YOURS are The Great Satan; the brave men who created this country, defend this country, and run this country today are NOT. I know of no such designation that is deserved by this nation--no matter which President and administration (Dem/GOP/or Whig) that was/is ascendant.

I have no need to create a faux-enemy inside this country (or outside of it; it is the Islamist who say they are OUR enemy, not US saying we are THEIRS) in order to expiate my guilt for having been born into the greatest, most properous, freest nation on earth.

I look at the tremendous gift the United States is to the world and I don't need to dwell endlessly over the faults of the men who run it. I don't uselessly expect my Presidents--GOP or Dem--to be perfect and act flawlessly--and I don't try to ruin them if they don't. America is a good place, a good country--and fears about our power, and jealousy over our wealth and freedom--is more than enough to explain any derision from overseas.

What is harder to explain is the Leftist, traitorous derision America's own citizens dish out on a daily basis--(and mostly because a GOP President is in the White House.)

I don't need government to continually rescue me; I am here to serve America--I do not expect social programs, welfare nanny statism and America to serve ME.

You flipdip hippy wannabe's (or retreads, if you're old enough) have a silly notion that war against the USA is only in the minds' of the Republicans--you listen not to the words out of the mouths of the Islamists THEMSELVES.

You can't stand the idea of having a for-real enemy, because you don't have any idea what you'd DO with an enemy; strong self-defense is NOT your forte. Thus, you use the well-known defense mechanisms (the only 'defenses' you're likely to use) and you either hide your heads in the sand and deny, or you project the locus of control of any war (cause-and-effects-and-aftermath) upon America alone. It's the only way you can maintain an illusion of control.

You think that, in order to have no war on earth, WE simply need to stop doing things that 'cause' it. You think it won't exist if WE only 'act right'. You're so scared of war, you think we HAVE to be in total control over it, have caused it all, so WE control whether it is a threat or not. Your overly-stroked inner child simply won't believe that we truly do not have that in our control.

You ignore eons of history where other people and nations have had unfathomable reasons for wanting to conquer us--and they always will. For all your supposed multi-culti knowledge, you have a woefully slim idea of what goes on in the human psyche; you are so egocentric, you think everyone is just like you.

If you want to know what kind of country America truly is, take a boat and row it around our great continent. See which way the rafts are coming, which way the planes full of immigrants are flying, which fences they are trying to cross under in the dark of night, and at risk of their lives.

When something happens in the world, see whose phone rings first, see which way the frightened, hurt, or crying eyes turn--it is not away from the United States, but towards us (and NOT China, Sweden or Costa Rica, for that matter). It's not blind patriotism that knows these things and loves this country for them--but every single person on the face of the earth, when push comes to shove (except in the minds of you spoiled Lefties who already have the advantages--and a country to defend you--of which others can only dream.)

A strong national defense ensures we keep these things--for ourselves AND others. You can't say, in the same breath that President Bush 'should have done something in advance to stop 9/11' and then work to help him lose the war in Iraq, and decry his every attempt to stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons NOW. Just what do you think 'in advance' means? What do you think it looks like?

From all the whining you Lefties are doing about our actions overseas, I can't help but think that any moves he would've made to stop 9/11, had that been possible, would have been met with the same hateful, cowardly rhetoric, Congressional opposition, and moves to impeach him. You simply have NO conception of what it takes to adequately defend ourselves in a nuclear age.

The only 'disease' America has is whatever crawled out of a bong in the 1960's and still continues to infest popular culture. When that thinking, and those who think it, die out, America will be a lot better off. The next generation that takes your place won't so stupidly call our men and women who choose to fight for us, because they have the guts to do so and they believe in us, 'kids'--and they'll give them, and this country, the honor and respect it has earned.

VerityINK

11 Comments:

Blogger iconoclast63 said...

Thank you for responding to my comment.

Allow me to clarify a few points. First of all, I am NOT a liberal. I supported Reagan and Bush 41, I spent years a devoted Limbaugh fan, and I have as much distaste for the welfare state as you do. The only difference is that I also DETEST with warfare state. That includes Clinton's adventures in the Balkans as well as this fraudulent war in Iraq.

Second, I was NOT calling this country the "Great Satan". I was merely referencing that to point out that we, as Americans, need to be honest about WHY they call us that.

A cursory glance at history reveals that the U.K. first, then later the U.S., have been interfering in the middle east for over 150 years. Between handing over Palestine to Israel in 1948 and overthrowing the democratically elected Mossadegh in 1953, all the way up to Bush's pre-emptive strike against Iraq 6 years ago, the western world has been stoking the fires of unrest in the region for a very long time.

The reality on the ground is that the Islamic world, whether misguided or not, believes we are there to maintain our hegemony over their natural resources.

Finally, for our political leaders, whether they be democrat or republican, to place our soldiers in harms way absent a clear and present threat to our national security borders on treason.

I served my time in the Marine Corps and luckily, during the Reagan administration, never found myself in combat. I would have gladly fought if called upon, because I was a naive child who believed that any cause that my leaders determined was sufficiently important to die for my country was reason enough.

I no longer believe that. General Smedley Butler once said that "War is a Racket". With those words echoing in my ears I started researching history to see if the two time Medal of Honor winner was correct.

In most cases it appears he was. Was our national security threatened by Spain in 1898? Germany in 1917? Korea in 1950? Vietnam in 1965? Iraq in 1991? No. Yet how many hundreds of thousands of Americans died? How many millions came home ruined and broken? How can you, in good conscious, send Americans to die when our national security is not threatened? How?

Now you want to launch a pre-emptive strike against Iran because they "might" be developing a nuclear weapon. The Soviet Union had 40,000 nukes AND the capability of delivering them to our shores and we faced down that threat without firing a shot.

This madness must end. Eisenhower warned of the dangers of "misplaced power in the military industrial complex". Follow the money sir. It is very likely that history will someday record millions of lives, American and otherwise, have been sacrificed for profit.

9:57 PM  
Blogger iconoclast63 said...

Please forgive the typos, I didn't proof read.

10:01 PM  
Blogger Sonny Lykos said...

Look, here's the existing situation as I see it, and the rest of mere conversation.

We're on a ship. On that ship we have Islamist terrorists infiltrated, and controlling other ships close to ours.

They have one state in mind. That is to destroy our ship and everyone on it. Remember "EVERYONE" on it.

Some of those "EVERYONES" are Americans who, because of their hat for Bush, or hate for conservatives, or hate for Republicans, or hate for (fill in the blank) are actually willing, and doing it - sabotaging their own ship. Creating holes in its hull, damaging it's engines. Trashing its weapon systems.

Therefore, and again in my opinion us "sane" people residing on our ship are fighting those upon it, while also trying to fight against those residing in nearby enemy ships building better weapon, building larger forces, upon which to sink our ship and kill those in life boats.

So since 2000 and earlier, we have entered a new journey entitled country and culture self destruction. While child I experiences others children who said "If I can't play with it, then I'll break it so no one can play with it." But now the "it" political power and money in America. And the children are still children, thinking still as children, but adult bodies, and with influence, money and controlling positions.

We cannot win. Our ship is destined to be destroyed. So continue to read the papers and magazines, and watch the TV news casts and talk shows, and watch as mass murder and mass suicide is playing out daily.

"If I can't have it I'l fix you", as these insane people blow holes in the hull of our shared ship. Multiply the man who gets jilted by his girlfriend and decides to hill her, then himself, by thousands of insane Americans.

Iran will win. Russia will win. All of Islam will win. ANd the members of the UN will win.

So please kiss America good by. What is about to occur will be the biggest validation of that phrase and politically worthlessness and definition of - the ignorant masses.

11:20 PM  
Blogger VerityINK said...

In no way have I EVER said we should launch a preemptive strike against Iran. Iran is a huge country with a powerful army--and not quite rational leaders. We'd need to think long and hard about going to war with them. The threat they pose, as of right now, does not warrant war.

However, how and when do we determine when it does? It's not fair to continually blame a President for not stopping 9/11 (especially to go as far as claiming he MIHOP!) and not realize that other threats in the world against us pose the same scenario. Stopping 9/11 before it happened would've meant preemptive action. It would've meant action against citizens in this country who had not yet done anything to us. It might have entailed action against their Saudi backers, or Osama in Pakistan itself--I don't know--but it would have been deemed just as big a bunch of 'warmongering' or 'civil rights violations' or 'destroying the Constitution' as the Left is now hollering against President Bush for trying to keep us safe from the threats posed by Iran.

Preemptive action will ALWAYS--and increasingly--have those same risks. There will be action against people and countries who have not yet harmed us--and that will always seem too far-reaching, too 'imperialistic', too jingoistic', too aggressive. There will always be the chance that we will be wrong. There will always be a Saddam waiting to move the weapons and hide the threats, lie about the risks, and cover up the danger.

The only alternative to preemptive action is to ALWAYS wait until we are attacked before we strike back--and that will mean sacrificing a Philadelphia, L.A., Chicago, Atlanta, San Francisco, or several of these cities at once. It will mean sacrificing our Alaska pipeline, or electrical grid, or water supply, or shipping channel, or a valuable port, or our fleet in Norfolk, or our food supply, or a full Super Bowl stadium, or Disneyland, or O'Hare, or Johns Hopkins, or West Point, or any other valuable system and the people who are there. And that alternative is unacceptable to me; it should be for EVERY American.

America cannot be expected to make up for every misstep and misjudgment--if they have been--that has been done in the middle east for the last 200-some years (nor before that; America did not even exist at the time of the Crusades) and by other countries. Whether or not you believe the Jews have the right to go back to their ancestral homeland is immaterial; the Ottoman empire lost WWI as an ally of Germany. Britain portioned the land and ceded it to the State of Israel--and that's that. There is more than enough room in the middle east to afford everyone there a peaceful, decent existence; it is not Israel's fault, nor ours, if the muslims do not choose to live that way. It is not our fault if their leaders use the billions of dollars in foreign aid they get to line their own pockets instead of building a good life for their people.

The idea that we have gone there to 'rape and pillage' their natural resources is ridiculous. If we are 'stealing their oil', where is the huge fleet of oil tankers--and the battleships and aircraft carriers to guard them--passing continually to and from the region? With the few number of refineries we have, the tankers carrying all that oil would be lined up between the Houston shipping channel and Key West!

You Lefties are SO willing to believe any bit of nonsense other countries throw your way! Japan didn't like us moving our Pacific fleet from one of our cities on the west coast to one of our cities in Hawaii? They didn't like us making it harder for them to steal the oil from the Dutch East Indies to further their imperial war plans? Tough! And you think that justifies them attacking us at Pearl Harbor? Nonsense! All of Asia, except perhaps China would've fallen to them had we not stepped it--perhaps even Australia.

Bin Laden is upset we have a base in Saudi Arabia? (He doesn't even live there--and he certainly isn't affected by it!) They don't like us allied with the state of Israel? (What business is that of theirs?) Saddam is mad that we didn't let him eat Kuwait for lunch? (We should just let him act out all he wants?) Tough! What you Lefties don't get is that the muslim world will ALWAYS come up with an excuse for their aggressive aims and terrorism against us. If they don't use bases for an excuse, it will be about a borderline. If it's not about that, it'll will be about our allies, or our UN decisions, or our keeping the Strait of Hormuz free, or anything else they can use against us.

You Lefties aid and abet them by giving their nonsense, and perpetually aggrieved state, credence. You will never believe two things:
1). that they DO want to conquer us,
2). that they use your side's popular culture memes as potent weapons against us.

In the middle east, they are not always very smart in their knowledge of the world, but they ARE very smart in their knowledge of people. They know all about the Viet Nam war and how we lost it at home due to the war protesters of the 1960's and '70's. They know that beat us better than the North Vietnamese ever could. They hope to do the same thing in the middle east by hollering 'it's about the oil!'--because they know how terribly effective that is with you people. They know that your side, the Lefties and Democrats in America, will take up that theme and use it against your own country. You, essentially, are fighting FOR THEM when you do so. They use the cry 'it's about the oil!' as a very effective and deliberate battle strategy--and you Lefties just can't see it; they know that, if they holler it, you'll believe it.

The Left needs to get real about the very true dangers we face and help us in a realistic plan to keep ourselves and our allies safe. Simply denying that the muslims are a threat isn't going to do it. The muslims THEMSELVES say they ARE a threat; you could at least, take them at their word. If they have legitimate grievances against us why are they not handling them in a prescribed civilized manner? I see them sending no delegations to Washington to decide an issue, Bin Laden didn't approach Saudi Arabia about asking us to leave our base their. I saw no diplomats, at Saddam's behest, negotiating those 17 UN sanctions he violated for 12 years, no one is approaching the UN (if they could actually function) about apportioning oil resources, or deciding Kashmir borders, or handing over the Abu Nidals of the world. Why not?

Why does our American Left, and much of the world, allow only the muslims to handle their problems in a violent, terroristic fashion that does nothing to actually solve the thing they say is a problem? (Taking down the WTC did not transport our troops out of Saudi Arabia, ramming the USS Cole did not decide oil shares, killing Daniel Pearl did not remove our demands for weapons inspectors, decide a border, or make us abandon Israel to them). Could it be that they do not deal with these 'problems' in a civilized way because they are not really what is at issue? Could it be, instead, that they are at war with us--and for their own reasons of wanting to conquer us? Is that the reason none of this can be settled through talking, negotiations, mediators, the UN, our President, diplomats, conferences--or anything else? Thank God some of us on the Right see it that way; we're the only ones who are going to keep you safe.

10:23 AM  
Anonymous bobcat said...

Wonderful post, Donal! I agree with every word and your comments, too!

The demonrats just don't get it; BOTH sides have to lay down their weapons to have peace. The leftists just want us to do it. They'll be terribly surprised - and dead - when they find out the other side didn't lay down theirs.

11:12 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

icon, DONAL wrote the most eloquent smack down of leftist drivel that i've read IN A LONG DAMN TIME!!
about your second paragraph starting with "allow me...", forgive me but i don't believe the first three sentences AT ALL!

why do you lefties think you can always begin with some variation of the same silly-assed disclaimer? in your case you love reagan, bush and limbaugh BUT...and then you go on to regugitate leftist mental bilge. do you seriously think that we conservatives haven't seen that lie at least two dozen times before!?

we usually don't bite honest people.

morgan

12:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

icon wrote, "this madness must end."

it sounds like you want to surrender.

morgan

12:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hei "Icon'', puting the fleet in pearl Harbor and embargoing oil to the japs couldn't have had to do with their carrying on a war of aggression in China at the time could it? Sapin i 1896? Seems to me a matter of the Monroe Doctrine says Spains was over-staying its welcome in our half of the hemisphere. Germany in 1917? Yeah, they sunk a ship with 124 Americans on it, was good enough for Wilson to declare war on them. Korea? Yeah, proxy war with the Soviet Union, what else is new? How come , in Koreas case, was a liberal Democrat able to manage that successfuly but not another liberal democrat in Vietnam? Iraq in '91? Jeez, he invaded Kuwait and Saudi Arabia, the UN said get him out, we did. The worlds got problems, Americas got problems. America ain't the worlds problems.Ever think what the world would be like if we weren't here? J'Mac.

1:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Brilliant essay Donal, simply brillant! You've hit on points and in a way I couldn't even dream of! Thats why I've always called you "The Sage 'O' Seattle''. Gotta tell ya though, I'm getting real tired of types like "Iconoclast'' and the "Americas a terrorist nation, America sucks''. real tired of it, like to the point the next time I hear it, whoever it is is going to be eating a knuckle sandwhich. Hey Morgan injured himself skiing, Patrica sent me a post. I'll call him tonight or tomorrw. J'Mac.

1:24 PM  
Blogger VerityINK said...

Thanks Morgan, J'Mac--it means an awful lot to me to hear that from you guys! And, yes, Morgan, whenever a Lefty starts telling me how he 'voted for Reagan' or 'was in the military--or some other point he thinks will soften me up--I mentally wonder about his credibility.

No Marine I've EVER known would've said 'Japan, rightly or wrongly bombed Pearl Harbor'!

3:51 PM  
Blogger VerityINK said...

Sonny--don't give up hope! There's a lot more on our side than you might think!

3:56 PM  

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