Monday, July 02, 2007

Here Ya Go, Lessy...

Les Ismore:

You guys are so funny. If you think DU speaks for the Democratic party, you are probably the only ones in America that do... I mean, really, get a grip. Do you speak for the Republican party? I don't think so... (at least I sure hope not!) How about FR?

Try reading these blogs:

These are representative of more mainstream Democrats. And believe me Morgan, Democrats don't see Republicans as the enemy.

Some Republicans have done some things in the last 7 years that would make T. Jefferson, A. Hamilton, A. Lincoln, and others spin in their graves--but that is just a handful of Republicans.

I think the vast majority are like my next door neighbor.

My Answer:

First of all, Les, I said the pieces I posted were not solely from DU; I visit a number of MSM, Democrat, Leftist websites and news sources. Secondly, I quote verbatim, so it's not 'we-guys' who think the posts are representative of the Democrat party. The Dems sound like Dems because it's Dems doing the talking.

Going to the websites you provided was cold comfort--and terribly sad--if the truth be told. Mostly, they all nattered about the candidates, trying to make ours sound as bad as possible. They all listed the polls as if they were gospel, naturally. And there was various mention of Michael Moore's movie 'Sicko' and AlGore's Climate Crisis concerts. There was the usual run-down of the Sunday morning political talk shows and their topics--and no shortage of spin given to make our people look like fools, dunces, or just plain incompetent. All this I expected, of course...

No, I had to look a little closer to see George Bush being likened to Neville Chamberlain, called a 'boy prince', 'Chimpy' ("You just know that bike-ride time is quiet time for Chimpy"), and accused of being "an inexperienced leader [who grows] increasingly arrogant, spurns lawmakers, grabs unprecedented power, bullies skeptics, stifles the press, and decides to spurn advice of seasoned hands and go it alone."

Cheney is called "an altogether more nefarious force who has used his unprecedented power as vice president to advance an agenda of official secrecy, non-accountability, untrammeled executive power, legitimized torture and general degradation of the rule of law." This administration is accused of killing "approximately 3370 US troops", countless Iraqi civilians, and turning Iraq into a 'siege state' where pregnant women are denied hospital delivery and health care, and where the people are being poisoned by bad water and poor food, within an infrastructure that is totally destroyed.

The biggest reason we're still in Iraq, it is stated in many of their comments--besides the mental illness of the President--is "to build mega-bases", which are "so conveniently located to the major oil pipelines, too!".
The London/Scottish terrorist attacks are thoroughly downplayed (American security is hardly mentioned), the terrorists are palmed off as rogue incompetents not worth much thought, and the whole thing is chalked up to 'fear-mongering by the President' (or the supposedly right-biased MSM.)

In short, the websites you posted, Les, as representative of mainstream Democrat opinion asks, in thinly veiled accusations:

"Is our Constitutional framework of checks and balances under assault? Our Bill of Rights under siege? Well, yes; I guess they are. Is the Executive ignoring all limits, engaging in disastrous foreign wars, and threatening more, dragging our prestige through the mud, defying Congress and public oversight? And is our Vice President completely out of control and secretly usurping even the President’s powers? Uh, yes.

Has our Justice Department become so politicized that we cannot assume fair administration of law? Do we know they’re using DoJ to smear our party’s officials, shield theirs and drive our supporters from the polls? Check. Have they been violating the law every day by how they spy on us, how they treat detainees, how they make decisions on everything from mine safety to drug testing, to food inspections to environmental protection, to protecting national security secrets and on and on? Uh, I guess they are.

Have their judicial appointees broken all links to precedent, threatening to undo individual rights and public protections painstakingly built over decades, and keep doing it for decades? Check. But we all knew that; we predicted it; none of this surprises us anymore; nothing new here.

The 'cure' is considered to be:

"... I believe that to get at everything else we care about, the regime’s continued presence in office is the first problem that must be solved. The message is straightforward: the current regime has violated the trust prerequisite for remaining in office; they are hurting the country now and deserve to be removed and not replaced by more of the same. Everything the regime believes and does stands in the way of every goal the majority of Americans have: justice, international peace and security, fairness and economic security for our citizens, and a little thing like keeping the planet hospitable for humans."

Yep, we're characterized as evil incarnate. Now, how is that different than what I said they said?

P.S. Many of the sites you mentioned blog roll and/or recommend Democratic Underground, Daily KOS, Juan Cole, Andrew Sullivan--and Edward's bloggers at Pandagon ('Mary filled with God's white, hot, sticky holy spirit'... or some such) and Shakespeare's Sister (is she the blogger that called us Bible-believers 'Christofascists?) so they couldn't disagree with them too awfully much!

Like your next door neighbors??? These aren't people to whom I'd WANT to live next door!


Anonymous Les Ismore said...

I was talking about my REPUBLICAN next door neighbor!!!

Thanks for the shoutout!

I dont think you actually read these quotes to be honest. I think you scan for keywords, your list of 'scary' words. But even if you did, I know you have definitely cherry picked here Donal. Because the vast majority of the comments are well thought out and responsible. Be honest on this, okay?

Yes, the Democratic party is a big tent. It is not the white male's party for sure. Our opinions are diverse for sure and we have kids just like the moroons who post at Free Republic, Lucianne and other places the regressives like to hang out. Places I go Ive even seen comments saying that lefties should be treated as traitors and hung, or everyone is a Stalinist who disagrees with a poster. One fine Republican even noted that it would make his decade to be able to execute a few 'lefties' with the gun he was carrying with him.

I recommend you read some of these blogs, especially Talking Points Memo. They are ferreting out corruption in the same way Jack Anderson did when we were kids. Great stuff. Atrios gives a pretty skeptical view of the war and has coined the term Friedman Unit meaning "give me 6 more months".

I better stop before Racist Shadows comes over to barbecue me again... I am sooooo afraid of that.

10:33 AM  
Blogger VerityINK said...

A. You will not talk about Russet Shadows like that here. He has a blog of his own and you need to take up any issue you have with him there. I will not have abusive trash-tallking here, Les. Clear?

B. I read every single quote very carefully. You can easily clock the time of my first post to the time of my answer to you and see the time it took for me to read all the front pages you recommended and comment.

I quoted them exactly--and on a variety of topics--made easier to read, with no mistakes, because I used italics. I notice you refrain from listing a SINGLE instance where I quoted them inaccurately. You mention nothing of any little misplaced side-quote I used or blew out of proportion.

You do hit-and-run posting, Les. You want folks to take a great deal of time and trouble to answer you, but your only answer to me and Morgan has been to say that we 'cherry-pick' stuff--yet you NEVER mention anything that we cherry pick, any out-of-context quotes we used, or any place we've deliberately mischaracterized Dem opinion!

That's not fair--and it does not encourage me to spend the kind of time I did answering you in the future--not when I get the same answer a two-minute reply would've gotten.

If you REALLY take issue with my supposedly 'cherry-picked' quotes, you'll have to explain why, if that's true, I have most of the whole orchard in my basket!

I've--by their own words--very fairly captured the essence of Democrat party positions. I'm afraid that it's YOU who has obviously NOT read what your own party professes. I have.

11:15 AM  
Blogger VerityINK said...

P.S. No true Republican would blabber Dem nonsense and still call themselves Republicans, so maybe your neighbors are just trying to keep the peace.

11:16 AM  
Anonymous bobcat said...

WONDERFUL piece, Donal! You bopped 'em clearly on the snout with their own rolled-up newspaper.

Come on, Les, no one is going to believe you now.

11:54 AM  
Blogger The Merry Widow said...

Bobcat-I haven't been believing les for some time now. He "sees" what he wants to see, "believes" what he wants to believe and "hears" only what he wants to hear. In other words, he cherry picks us!
Basically, I ignore him anymore, he doesn't want to be confused with the facts as he's already made up his mind. He has decided that we are; racist, bigots, haters, fools, charlatans, Bible thumpers, and enarmored of President Bush. Which I am not, I voted for him because the option was worse. I am a libertarian(with a small "l") because I want less government. And even though I know RS is a Christian gentleman, I have to listen to les insult him for no reason except a perceived one based on RS's avatar.
Donal-Fine rant sis! Truth is anathema to those who prefer darkness.


12:04 PM  
Anonymous Les Ismore said...

No I dont believe any of the things you mention. Well maybe some. I do believe there is a racist amongst you, I believe you worship the ground that W walks on and even more D**k Cheney, but fools and charlatans, no. I think in general you are all pretty nice people, just sadly misinformed. Which you think of me so I guess we are even there.

And I do post at RS blog and will continue to call him on that avatar just as if someone showed up with a swastika avatar here.

Back to the original thought from Donal. No, I dont think you changed any of the quotes there but I know both of those blogs for years and you and I both know you had to look long and hard for anything remotely offensive to your sensibilities. And they are ALL cherry picked. Of course. But that isnt meant as a slam against you. It is just what you have to do and you know it. Big difference between DU and TPM. Just like a big difference between FR and RedState.

Even some of the 'offensive' quotes are not one bit offensive but more against your politics and that may seem offensive but that is what a democracy is all about. So, lets see if we can separate the ones that are crazy from the ones that you dont agree with.

Cheney is called "an altogether more nefarious force who has used his unprecedented power as vice president to advance an agenda of official secrecy, non-accountability, untrammeled executive power, legitimized torture and general degradation of the rule of law."
Have you read the WP article? I think not if you still believe this is not true.

12:28 PM  
Blogger The Merry Widow said...

les-Out of courtesy to the office, I wouldn't smack the President upside the head with one of my cast iron skillets. And I have come to the conclusion he knows very well what he is doing, and part of it is to bring in the NAU(North American Union) which is why I have been fighting the shamnesty bill tooth and nail.Illegal is illegal.
I happen to be in private contact with RS, and he is so far from racist. He uses it because he is in the South, and not everything about the South is bad. Most of my ancestors were southerners who fought for the South, you do realize that the majority of southerners were not slaveowners? It was also a states rights issue, they could have picked a better cause and put some teeth into the states holding the federal government's feet to the fire. Slavery was wrong, plain and simple. But there were other issues that would have stuck better.
And what is wrong with calling evil, evil? mohammadism is evil. I have read the koran and it is sick, illogical and evil. G*D expects us to oppose evil, even if it means fighting. I just think our troops went in with too many chains on them to do what needed to be done. pc wars are losing wars. You either fight a war or send in the police, you can't do both effectively!
As for Cheney, he is a politician, I don't trust any of them.


3:23 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

DONAL thanks for all the flattering words!

Les I understand political differences. One thing I'll NEVER comprehend is Bush-Cheney Derangent Syndrome. You have a SERIOUS problem with Dick Cheney and he's one of the finest men who have EVER held that office. I know I won't get through to you where Cheney is concerned, for an explanation of why see my first post this morning.

The Cheneys, in addition to being extraordinary Americans and a brilliant power couple, have given an ENORMOUS portion of their income to private charities. This is just a guess, but I'll bet they gave at least 1/3 to charity. That probably is 10 times more than Gore or Clintoon.

You see Les morality and charity are private matters. IOW it matters what YOU do, not what you use the police power of the state to force OTHERS to do that really matters.


4:05 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

TMW the overwhelming majority of southerners DIDN'T own slaves. It was a very small minority of wealthy landowners and businessmen who owned slaves. I was reminded the other day by a good old boy in Jacksonvillle that it wasn't a "civil war" at all. It was a war of southern independance and subsequent northern aggression. Hey the victors write the history you know...


4:10 PM  
Blogger The Merry Widow said...

Morgan-Exactlly! Slavery was the trigger, the south was and still is mainly agricultural. The north is mainly industrial AND trade!
I love Lincoln as a fellow Christian, but the war to force the Southerners to stay was wrong, it has left a scar and a lot of bitterness. And the scorn that northerners show when they vacation or move to the South is old.
As for the DEMOCRATS who forced segregation on the South, well it took a Republican president to break the hold of the "old south" democrats and the klan! My Mother as a roman catholic, and Morgan you as a Jew would have been in the klan's sights too! And they were overwhelmingly democrats!
My Dad growing up in Colorado went to a church for a time(So. Bap.)with his family where once a year all the klan members showed up in their robes and hoods. It was the democrats again who were the members, my Dad became a Republican, and that was part of the reason.
So les, we know history and we don't flinch from it. But we also refuse to become screeching, screaming, whining babies over it either!
You did read what that black moderator said about blacks being too emotional to control themselves? That was an insult to many of the blacks I know who have served in the military! Do you accept that kind of copout childish excuse? Why aren't you angry with him? For making excuses as if you are incapable of acting like a mature adult? Are you going to let someone say that your color of skin exempts you from growing up? Where is the outrage? Why aren't you fuming about that?
Why don't you get angry about something worthy of your anger, instead of coming in and going off topic and throwing insults around?
If you don't like what Donal posts, there is an easy solution, an adult solution, DON'T READ HER BLOG!


6:10 PM  
Blogger Russet Shadows said...

Name-calling and argument by assumption -- way to go, Les. That's some real convincing argumentation. Why don't you open up your own blog, rather than spewing nonsense all over Donal's and mine?

7:21 PM  
Anonymous z said...

les, that racist line is just plain stupid. Give it up.

And, since the word, even on CNN, is that the Democratic leadership in Congress speaks weekly to AND DU, wouldn't you say they just might represent more Dems than you'd like to think?

Seems like if Reid and Pelosi and Hillary listen that intently, and really go against what I think is the grain of the few good Democrats who still love this country for what she IS and not what the SOcialist haven some would like to make her, then we have a problem with the Democrat party........sure doesn't reflect what you're suggesting.

And, may I say that it's just plain dumb and revealing for anyone to come to an avowedly conservative site and slam the conservatives? ANd suggest that because they think unlike you, they're wrong? Open your mind, man..this is AMERICA.


8:13 PM  
Anonymous Les Ismore said...

Morgan, FYI from FY2005
The Cheneys donated just under $6.87 million to charity from the stock options and royalties from Mrs. Cheney’s books.

Not a barometer I would use to measure character but you are right, they gave alot of money to charity. Of course they have alot of money to start with.
D**k, who fed from the public trough for years. Funny how when he became CEO of Halliburton (with no previous experience in that capacity), their government contracts increased exponentially. His most famous (or infamous) business decisions include trading with Iran & buying a company with billions of dollars in asbestos liabilities, something that almost dragged Halliburton into the red.

2:58 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Les I know that the word "Haliburton" (hissed) is like garlic to you lefty vampires, but they are an incredible company. Did you know that they managed to have hot food kitchens in some of the most astounding places during the 1st Gulf War? Sometimes within a day or two of us taking a town or an area, they would use their own equipment to rush a makeshift kitchen and first aid tent to us.

I was a squid who spent lots of time with a Marine squad protecting and/or fixing radars and the efficiency of Haliburton and their offshoot companies was amazing to behold. Leftist hatred of the company is just another measure of your derangement.

Dick Cheney is an amazing public servent!


4:50 AM  
Anonymous Les Ismore said...

The Shorter Racist Shadows:

"Dont you people have some place else to go?"

We read Racist Shadows so you dont have to.

5:04 AM  
Anonymous Les Ismore said...

Yes, Halliburton is a great logistics company, I have problems with the way they do business. Anything for a dollar or two. Dealing with Iran and Iraq (prewar of course) and all of the other despots. Of course, this great American company just moved their headquarters offshore. All under the auspices of that great American D**k Cheney.

5:07 AM  
Anonymous z said...

Not only that, MOrgan and les, but Haliburton was chosen for Iraq contracts BECAUSE THEY WERE IN THE REGION. My husband has dealt with enormous contracts in that region too...was in Iraq MANY times years back, and he knows from HUGE Projects. A large contract can take TWO YEARS to come together, with Requests for Proposals, etc etc............we didn't have that time. He frequently says this Haliburton stuff is ridiculous. They'd been working there for years and their infrastructure was ready for this project; this is no conspiracy.

les, I wish I'd kept the stats, but the comparison of charity given quietly by Republicans is far higher than Dems, and there is info now that Dems make MORE money than Republicans do in general; this "BIG BUSINESS" is all Republican with all those "evil" remifications is nuts,pal.


8:45 AM  
Blogger Russet Shadows said...

So why don't you have your own blog, Les?

2:39 PM  

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